Culture or creativity: what comes first?

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[0:04] [Music] hello and welcome back to the Alchemists a limited series podcast you’ll quickly come to know is your right or die for a State of Social 2024 my name is Andrés López-Varela you can call me ALV in

[0:19] fact I’m pretty sure a lot of people only know me as ALV and not sure what those letters stand for today we are recording on the traditional lands of the wadjuk Nar people in this episode I chat with internet National marketing

[0:30] and strategy leader Paula Bloodworth founding partner of creative agency Berlin Richard Berney and Global creative director Ken Leung we tackled the question cultural creativity what comes first in front of a live audience here

[0:43] at State of Social people have overcorrected on purpose and gotten really high on it and misinterpreted it um and they think that that means you need to be Earnest and serious and if you’re a tooth based brand you suddenly

[0:54] need to change the world before we get into that chat I have to say it’s been a mega couple of days here at to Stadium we’ve just had two very full days of thought-provoking Keynotes mind openening workshops and breakouts from

[1:08] some of the world’s brightest marketing Minds we’ve had the most fun chats between sessions waiting for coffees standing in the lunch lines oh my goodness State of Social 2024 has been a phenomenal experience and I really

[1:21] believe this is the best marketing conference in Australia and so does everyone who was here [Music] it’s just the line of the speakers are awesome they’re so knowledgeable they’re

[1:37] like literally know the latest and the greatest in social media marketing Michael talking about a reverence with Ryan a make it look more budget Embrace budget make it look silly don’t make it a perfect circle make it a squiggly

[1:49] Circle The Juice Box chat uh by Joel Pemba I found that fascinating yeah I liked be Smith we saw her last year as well and she was amazing I actually really enjoyed learning about the behind everything yeah the workshops so far

[2:02] have been amazing yeah really really good my first year um I’ve really enjoyed the Keynotes and the quality of presenters have been really good I’ve learned so much definitely the depth of presenters and the fact that they have

[2:14] Come From Here There and Everywhere We are uh joined today by three of the Alchemists of our industry as we tackle the question culture or creativity what comes first we’re recording this episode here in front of

[2:28] a live audience at State of Social 2024 for the people that are listening later in their feeds I want you to give them a big cheer on three 1 2 3 that’s it all right let’s do it it’s my pleasure to welcome our Alchemist to

[2:43] the stage to kick off this big conversation starting with Paula Bloodworth Paula as we saw this morning is an internationally recognized strategy leader who uh is currently working with Idris Elber and most

[2:54] recently on the high impact don’t stop your future anti- knife crime campaign in the UK please put your hands to together for Paul Bloodworth our next Alchemist to join us on stage is Richard Berney Richard is an

[3:07] award-winning executive creative director founding partner of creative agency Berlin and a hopeful environmentalist perhaps most interestingly though Richard also moonlights in the hit theater show my

[3:17] greatest period ever as the universe’s only known menstrual doodo and he’s just returned from playing that show at The edur Fringe Festival please welcome Richard Berney to the stage and this empty chair over here

[3:30] will shortly be filled by Ken Leung Ken is a vision creative leader and perhaps one of perth’s greatest creative exports during 20 years in London and New York Ken LED branding for the world’s largest fashion brands under lvmh and fast

[3:42] retailing and he was also most recently the global creative director at Uniqlo he’s worked as touched campaigns and creative in cultural capitals all around the world and worked with cultural icons as well let’s give Ken a round of

[3:54] applause to Welcome to the stage I want to start um by sort of taing with this year’s uh theme of alchemy um and I want to start us off with a bit of a philosophical question the American poet Sylvia Plath once said

[4:08] the worst enemy to creativity is self-doubt what aspects of your own self-doubt have you each had to overcome to produce creative work either for yourselves or on behalf of Brands Paula I don’t know if I agree actually I think

[4:22] self you don’t agree with driv everything I do you know it’s the impostor that keeps you hungry because as soon as you I don’t know I think I um I overcompensate and try and and actually some of the doubts is where the

[4:35] good stuff is it’s in the vulnerabilities and the weaknesses and the it’s the juicy dark side of your character that actually gets to the most sort of revealing Solutions I don’t know if I answered your question I just got

[4:45] really hung up on self-doubt yeah but but maybe um I guess what syl’s trying to say is that might stop you from actually producing the creative work sure yeah I guess it can um once again I think I kind of lean into it and

[4:58] overwork and maybe work myself too much but I think yeah I guess using that to fuel you um and work harder and find more and find the solutions um to get to something exciting uh because complacency I think is also the enemy of

[5:13] creativity which how how you do you feel about that I think it’s an amazing question yeah like I love that question did you write is that your question that’s my question it’s not my quote it’s silia plas yeah no it’s a really sh

[5:25] I share credit with syia PL for that question okay I heard this recently which I think is really interesting what does everybody think that the opposite of depression is anybody I know this is a podcast but whatever it out happiness

[5:38] Elation happiness that’s what I thought it’s expression the opposite of depression is expression um I can’t explain that but I think you could all work that out if you think about it long enough um I do think

[5:51] that um it’s very hard to be expressive if you are filled with self-doubt I think you can get plenty of insights and understanding and empathy from self-doubt um and what I’ve faced and I

[6:04] continue to face I like I need to explain this otherwise you might just think I’m a absolute pervy weirdo but I am a menstrual doodler right I’m in this this theater show and it’s about um menstrual education it’s about the

[6:17] female hormone hormonal cycle I’m not the star my wife is the star she’s fabulous and but I’m on stage and so I help to bring this mostly to women and I’m a man so I’m generally not welcome it’s not true I’ve been very welcomed in

[6:33] that space But there there’s plenty of self-doubt just being a guy in the red tent so that would be the answer to your question where do I feel that absolutely there and I have a knight in front of me who is my wife and she lets me in and

[6:51] says hey it’s okay he’s okay you know friend and then I use you know the listening and the creativity to deliver that education and just before I move on to Kent I just want you to clarify menstrual dueling oh sorry I meant to

[7:03] explain that like I draw not in menstrual blood I I I I I do menstrual education and I do it I’m like a cartoonist on stage so I listen to my wife’s science and the stories and the songs and I bring it to life with Live

[7:20] sketch animation that’s why I’m the world’s universe’s only menstrual dude y y probably congratulations mhm and Ken from your point of view obviously menstrual doodling aside oh God I’m going to sound so boring

[7:33] now what what about this this uh this question around self-doubt and creativity the tension the push and pull do you use it maybe like Paula says or do you sort of find ways around it how do you uh how does it how does it affect

[7:44] your creative work yeah I mean totally I I I face self-doubt every morning when I wake up and look in the mirror um so like Paul I do use it um and it does create barriers you know in my head uh but I use it to drive me uh I think what

[7:59] helped me is trying to define a purpose for what I do um and I did that when I came back to Australia from from America and from England um I had the time and space to Define what I want to do with my life and my work next so I’ve defined

[8:15] my purpose as using my creativity and my experience to help my community uh so you know if I’m facing moments of self-doubt me being back here and wanting to help the creative community of of Western Australia per um through

[8:30] the work that I do lets me kind of gives me a bigger picture to you know step out of myself and step out of my head uh and gives me the courage to to to keep on going forward and then using that in my work um yeah I’m I’m I’m always

[8:45] questioning myself always challenging myself to do better um that’s kind of just innate but uh you that self-doubt kind of drives me to prove myself to myself as well as prove myself to other people yeah that’s interesting that’s

[8:57] interesting and so that sense of purpose and sort of you know serving a community is that something that you guys can relate to in in in a sense from a creative point of view I mean I have a luxury to I get to work with Idis on

[9:08] some pretty purposeful campaigns the anti- knife crime thing but it to your point I think it like goes beyond yourself you know like you sort of remove yourself from the equation a bit and go you know how are you helping how

[9:18] are you going the extra mile to actually solve the problem um or and this purpose kind of in everything you do I think it helps yeah you drive and sort of yeah remove your ego from it a little bit and go actually helping and doing something

[9:31] is better than doing nothing I have I’ve been thinking about this a lot in the last year because I I’ve left one job and I’ve started a little company and it’s like what do we want to do and so anyway here’s there’s two parts to it

[9:44] for me the one is it’s a it’s such a strong driver like um to to help to have a sense of Duty to actually get something done that your community or the world or whatever cares about like you don’t want to that up yeah you

[9:59] know CU it’s not just about getting paid like you want to fix something or improve something so there needs to be some pride there so it’s a great driver of Mojo and creativity needs that and then everybody gets on board whatever um

[10:13] and the other thing is I think um it’s super nice to to um have a sense of responsibility for what we do y uh it’s not something that people talk about very much I know that you’re practicing it in like quite a scaled way but um

[10:29] just knowing that that there’s a duty to what we we’re doing with mass communication you know we got to know that cuz it’s big what we do and it can have like profound impact it’s very very powerful um so I think it’s really nice

[10:43] what we do and I I think with with that comes um yeah you got to be responsible for for that power and like the good stuff that you can do yeah that makes sense I like that I think that’s a good way of looking at the work that we do

[10:57] and and you know thinking about not just about selling a shoe or selling a cookie or selling a house or whatever but actually how do you contribute more broadly to a community or a culture uh and that’s what we want to talk more

[11:08] about actually today is about the concept of culture and what it means for us in the marketing game and we’re living in a time where this idea of maybe a monoculture this dominant view of the world this dominant way of

[11:19] interacting with the world is you know rapidly disappearing vanished perhaps already um and you know some say that we’re more polarized than ever some say we’re just exploring different authentic identities in different ways uh you know

[11:31] some say we’re in moral decline sure you know everyone’s got got got a got a way of thinking about this time um what is the place and maybe Ken maybe you can start talking a little bit about this what is the place for brands in that

[11:43] kind of a world where we can sometimes even struggle to agree on like if the sky is blue you know if if you know the Earth is round if an election was stolen you know um off the top of my head some examples you know sure is that sort of a

[11:57] landscape is that you know aren’t brands ultimately inconsequential in that space no I mean I I think you know I look at Brands like I look at myself to me brands should well brands have the responsibility you know once they reach

[12:11] a certain size they have a level of power they have a platform they have a community of people that they can speak to and my it’s my opinion that brands should use that power for purpose um whatever that may be now some Brands you

[12:28] know exist I’m just selling product and and that’s fine you know that’s great but I do I think that people that really fall in love with Brands they fall in love with the brand because they’ve they’ they’ve got a purpose they pick a

[12:40] lane you know whatever right or left or whatever it is yeah um I think that that’s when you create emotional connection love you know um passion for a brand I think that if you can’t you can’t always please everyone and and

[12:54] when Brands try and do that they get watered down we’ve seen it with you know Gap in America they tried to everyone there was no point of view so if you have a point of view same same as a person if someone’s Wishy washing and

[13:04] doesn’t take a stance on it I don’t want to it’s too V I don’t want to be with that person so um I think that that the best brands have have a have a focus they have a point of view and they have a purpose so really you know leaning

[13:17] into that fragmentation from a cultural point of view and being like this is the group this is the community this is the culture that we feel most aligned with kind of you know it’s perhaps the best way for Brands to to serve a community

[13:29] perhaps does that make sense well how does that sound to you Paula yeah I mean I’m a big advocate of having a point of view in culture that’s pretty much where I start and where I think the energy comes from so I couldn’t agree more I

[13:41] think there’s people have overcorrected on purpose and gotten really high on it and misinterpreted it um and they think that that means you need to be Earnest and serious and if you’re a toothpaste brand you suddenly need to change the

[13:53] world it’s a purpose can also just be like bringing some fun and entertainment to the world and purpose can be in how you run your organization do you have a diverse organization are you you know inspiring work life balance all those

[14:06] things as a company what are you putting out versus trying to say sell a bunch of toothpaste off um yeah trying to save the world so I I just I think purpose is almost gotten a bit out of control or rather misinterpreted and when it’s when

[14:18] it’s good and it’s applied authentically to a brand and they find that community and they actually do make a difference and they put their money where their mouth is then it’s like dynamite um but I think yeah we also need to remember

[14:30] that purposes particularly at a point of polarization and I don’t even the state of the world maybe bringing better of joy is also a good purpose to have yeah so so so you know um that concept of purpose I think is really interesting

[14:40] when we think about uh the you know people’s you know different views of the world and their different experiences of the world and also culturally where they sit um whether it’s you know um within a within a sort of a a physical sense in

[14:53] the real world or in the digital sense online is there an opportunity then in terms of what you’ve both mentioned about purpose and about um about finding the right purpose but also maybe not you know sort of betting the farm on purpose

[15:07] if you like is there sort of a balance there where um there can be a difference made to culture positive different made Culture by actually you know selling shoes or cookies or homes for example Rich absolutely like because it’s

[15:25] there’s so much resources in Brands I know the you know the reason they exist is to make money it’s a business if we’re talking about selling shoes like they are very well resourced they have really clever people they have big

[15:41] audiences so they have the potential to do good they definitely do um there’s nothing that says that they should I mean yes there is like you know it was it’s a nice thing to do but it’s not you know what they need to do but it’s just

[15:57] like what do you want to do like what do you want to do when you get up like yeah you you want to make money but it’s also it’s just like it’s what you were saying this morning about like Alba his um philosophy is let’s do what feels good

[16:11] rather than what’s intellectually good so you know that that purpose has to come uh authentically and often it comes from the founder you know if it’s a very founder Le company you know I had the

[16:22] had the the privilege of working with some amazing Founders like Tadashi at Unico um and what I do with when I work with brand is I really question them and we try and drill down to what is the essence of what drives you other than

[16:34] selling clothes or or whatever and it has to feel authentic otherwise when when Brands try and buy to this purpose oh we’re saving the world at greenwashing where it’s it just feels the customer is smarter than than than

[16:46] Brands give them credit for um and just feels gross it just it’s um Falls flat Falls flat exactly yeah yeah so I mean let’s shift it into sort of a more practical conversation um with that in mind do you think of the sort of the the

[17:00] the best ways for Brands to um access those kind of cultural subcultural Trends to make you know the work that we do more relevant to audiences the audiences that matter to us like what’s the best way that we can contribute and

[17:15] I guess add value to that culture rather than just borrow from it um I go out in the jungle like I just I find Brands so increasingly more removed from the realities of people and also culture is such a buzz word like everyone just

[17:32] throws that word around and most of the time they mean youth by the way like you know like it’s and you’re like I just want a a young cre you’re talking about Boomer culture yeah like it’s like what there’s so there’s cultural like what

[17:44] culture do you want to add to and I think you’re right like a lot of these Brands instead of adding to it or leading it they’re stealing from it um particularly in in diverse communities as well like they’re appropriating a lot

[17:55] of culture versus contributing to it um so how are you going out there and understanding your audience and I I see a lot of research projects that are like Quant studies or online surveys or whatever but you actually I’d rather

[18:07] have half a day with an interesting person who’s obsessed with gardening or whatever it is like whatever their Quirk is understand them in a deep way and mean something to them than what the Quant study says for like 5,000 people

[18:21] and I don’t think we do that enough I think we’re getting that from our our marketing plans yeah Ken you were nodding there when Paul was saying the research thing just I’m not a research guy I’m I’m all about getting people in

[18:32] the building that actually authentically live it I’ll give an example of this idea of culture and and bringing that to a brand so uh I don’t know Virgil Aro for instance um when he was hired by Louie um you know it was a controversial

[18:47] decision um you know he was outside of the industry um he wasn’t a train designer um he was in French uh but what he did bring to the brand was obviously his community of people he endlessly creative you know talk about creative

[19:02] I’ve met him at a at a party in Paris way before he was big and I could see then the kind of Creative Energy from him so when he got into Louie he had this I guess this purpose and what he did authentically was Elevate uh

[19:18] opportunities of creativity for people of color so he brought along his community from Chicago uh young black creators people of color and that’s how I think he was like in terms of purpose was was able to better the world of

[19:29] course he was selling shoes and then it brought his communia people to the brand and you know made it cool and brought Energy new energy back to vuon um and that’s obviously been car carried forward by forel but that I think that

[19:41] was a good example of culture and creativity um colliding well colliding in a symbiotic relationship yeah I think you know marketers and Brands hold this goal of shaping culture with their creative ideas that’s kind of almost the

[19:55] ultimate aspiration of the marker of their success aside from like selling right so like you know broadly speaking those those are sort of big goals and it makes sense because this concept of a culture shaping creative idea in air

[20:08] quotes can Galvanize people around a brand you know like even small things like I always read the inside of Tony’s chocolate only bars like for example um yay shout out for Tony shout out for Tony um Telly do you think Brands Rich

[20:22] maybe tell me uh if you think brands that aim to lead or shape culture in these ways can they truly make like effective compelling creative work or is it a little bit more almost like a like a sort of a cultural project rather than

[20:37] commercial project I mean people want to feel like that’s all we want like it does we don’t necessarily want to be good but we definitely want to feel and and good feels good so I think um I think if the intention is true if they

[20:54] really actually do want to shift culture in some beneficial way the intention is is is good there’s a pretty good chance they’re going to have a good crack at it yeah um if they’re doing it for cultural c yeah maybe maybe not probably not

[21:13] probably not but if the intention is is to do it then like I said before they’re really well resourced and they work with like Apex communicators like the best of the best and so they they got a pretty good shot to do something that people

[21:25] are going to pay attention to and they will ALS Al um put access on the table like how to help so um yeah 100% they’re probably more effective than I don’t know about government but sometimes yeah yeah yeah interesting oh

[21:42] yeah absolutely I think we’re looking at them to do that because they are independent do you grow that PO yeah um I mean it’s it’s been proven purpose actually yeah commerciality it does follow if you actually do something in

[21:55] in culture and you have a purpose it’s it’s load of graphs um but I think so few are actually doing it well because they sit at the middle of culture they don’t sit on the edge more and more Brands need to learn to sit on that edge

[22:10] and take a take a leap like I love the Virgil ablo and like every time you sort of get lost in this world you just something gets fed to you from Virgil and you’re like oh that’s like a a reminder of of how to do it you know and

[22:21] he he and he wouldn’t have even I don’t even know if you think about the edge but he was just like find the people that care about that one thing really deep and if you can connect with them everyone else is going to follow but it

[22:32] takes I think a bit of Bravery not even bravery CU it’s actually not brave if you do it well it is the smartest most effective strategy like and the work is set up for the most success because you’re actually talking to a to

[22:44] something happening on the edge of culture that hasn’t happened yet and then you’re leading culture rather than following it or or as you said sort of stealing from it and I I wish we were playing there a bit more um and I fear

[22:55] we’re not um so of course people are you know um people to create these big Ideas they want to create these ideas that are maybe maybe big is the wrong word but create these kind of impacting ideas and sort of add to culture and sort of you

[23:06] know um enrich it uh and then of course there are people maybe your higher ups who are a little bit nervous about potentially uh you know taking a risk that’s involved with with a particular subculture that maybe you know might be

[23:18] um you know more sensitive to appropriation or or offense because they have a history of being appropriated or offended right um and I think there probably legitimate concerns on both sides nobody wants to have their company

[23:29] canceled except maybe Michael corer and Ryan a I guess as we heard this morning um but for communities and and and for subcultures for those kind of groups like they don’t want something that is deeply meaningful to them as you said

[23:43] Paula to be like you know appropriated or used just for a quick buck so how how do we assess the kind of value of a creative idea uh in terms of like you know doing the right thing by those communities and doing the right thing by

[23:55] those cultures um or do we dial down the courage and the creativity like do we dial it down or do we double down on it in order to kind of make that that work ask permission like get them in the room do it with them like like if you do it

[24:11] without them yeah that’s really risky yeah like I wouldn’t I wouldn’t do that that’s not a good decision so yeah I think you just got to bring him in the room bring him in the room early and actually honestly it’ll

[24:23] whatever you do will probably more be much more interesting it’ll be more original it’ll be more Cutting Edge because you’ve asked somebody who is in it you know it isn’t it isn’t like vanilla research from a thousand people

[24:38] who don’t want to offend people you’re actually asking the person that really gives a about it and it is their life and they’ll tell you if it’s not okay like don’t don’t do that or they’ll tell

[24:48] you thank God yeah yeah let’s let’s go and I’ll go with you I mean I would even extend on that and so if if you have to bring them from the outside then it’s not really authentically something you believe in right you know it doesn’t it

[25:01] feels like you’re manufacturing it for the sake of something so it has to come from leadership it has to come from you know within um to be authentic yeah fantastic all right well uh it’s almost St to wrap up it’s fascinating

[25:16] conversation could go for forever um but you know make strict with time so uh but before we wrap up I want to um play fast and loose with your opinions I’ve got some questions that are meant to make you feel a little uneasy but remember

[25:29] the whole point is you can play it faster unless you’re the Alchemists on a show called The Alchemist so I’ve imbued you with a special magic to effectively you know not screw it up so I’m going to pick one of you randomly to answer each

[25:38] of these questions and you just give me what first comes to mind uh and the rest of you can agree disagree react in shock storm off the stage whatever feels right at the time right uh so we’re going to start I’m going to start Rich because he

[25:50] looks the most concerned so uh as an alchemist you create a new substance that can shape culture online what one thing would you hope to change online for the better with this magical

[26:04] substance uh I’m a I’m a I’m a tree hugger I’m an environmentalist I’ve been profoundly concerned about where Humanity has been going since I was a kid I think our behavior is subpar there I I would um I would I would want our

[26:22] Behavior to to be more uh authentic to like what we actually need to do to sort everything out you know we’re sitting on the edge of hell right now I just want people to you know and myself everybody to just

[26:34] get on board there that’s that’s what I would do yeah great I it’s great use to that magical substance uh okay Paula um as an alchemist you rewrite the laws of the universe with new discoveries wondrous

[26:46] and new discoveries what’s the latest thing you’ve learned that you want the audience to know about too can I have his question what’s the latest new discovery yeah something that you’ve learned

[27:00] recently want everyone else to that you think oh wow this is something that everyone else could do you can answer answer Rich no no um uh no one knows what they’re doing no one knows what they’re doing no one

[27:13] knows what they’re doing like you figure it out just get in there and I you know I said it this morning but just make you feel something and and everything else and all this other garbage and all these you know intellectualism and and

[27:27] posturing online digital and social and what have you professional professionalism is is too much no one knows what they’re doing um put it out there and have a go that’s good I like that that’s great Ken as an alchemist

[27:40] you’ve created a magical compound in your Apothecary that can wipe out one of the social mediums which one do you wipe out oh um Tik Tok cuz I don’t understand T I got one follower literally one follower

[27:55] yeah it like I just you know when I I I when to create content for Brands I want to do it as as beautifully as possible and to me that it’s just um wed everything down so be gone Tik Tok y okay that’s it you heard it here first

[28:10] yeah so many interesting and thought-provoking uh comments and hot texes really appreciate uh your time thank you all of you uh Paula Rich Ken thank you for joining me here on stage and thank you for being uh so open and

[28:22] honest with my fast and loose questions as well please show your appreciation for the Alchemists Paul Bloodworth Richard and Ken thank you there is plenty more to wrap your ears around on the Alchemists including

[28:37] heaps of in-depth chats with this year’s State of Social speakers so make sure you follow the show wherever you get your podcasts and if you like what you heard give us a five star review and tell a mate or two or three tell your

[28:50] mom the Alchemists is a co-production of State of Social and Creative Fix the show is produced by me Andrés López-Varela and Aaron Matthews from Creative Fix with additional production support by Cal McClain Meg Coffey is our executive

[29:03] producer on behalf of all the Alchemists I’m a I’ll catch you next time